Legislature(2005 - 2006)

03/24/2006 09:03 AM House W&M


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09:03:06 AM Start
09:03:21 AM Overview - Alaska Retirement Management Board Recommendations to the Legislature
10:00:13 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
           HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS                                                                          
                         March 24, 2006                                                                                         
                           9:03 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bruce Weyhrauch, Chair                                                                                           
Representative Ralph Samuels                                                                                                    
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
Representative Carl Moses                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Norman Rokeberg                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
OVERVIEW - ALASKA RETIREMENT MANAGEMENT BOARD RECOMMENDATIONS TO                                                                
THE LEGISLATURE                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
GAIL SCHUBERT, Chair                                                                                                            
Alaska Retirement Management Board (ARMB)                                                                                       
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information and answered questions                                                                
regarding the unfunded liability of the Public Employees'                                                                       
Retirement System (PERS) and Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
LARRY SEMMENS, Board Member                                                                                                     
Alaska Retirement Management Board (ARMB)                                                                                       
Kenai, Alaska                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information and answered questions                                                                
regarding one possible solution to addressing the unfunded                                                                      
liability of the Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DAVID SLISHINSKY, Principal and Consulting Actuary                                                                              
Buck Consultants                                                                                                                
Denver, Colorado                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided  information and answered questions                                                               
regarding  the  actuarial  findings   by  Buck  Consultants,  the                                                               
state's  actuary  for  the Public  Employees'  Retirement  System                                                               
(PERS) and Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
GARY BADER, Chief Investment Officer                                                                                            
Treasury Division                                                                                                               
Department of Revenue (DOR)                                                                                                     
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   Answered  questions regarding  the unfunded                                                               
liability of  the Public Employees' Retirement  System (PERS) and                                                               
Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TOM BOUTIN, Deputy Commissioner                                                                                                 
Treasury Division                                                                                                               
Department of Revenue (DOR)                                                                                                     
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   Answered  questions regarding  the unfunded                                                               
liability of  the Public Employees' Retirement  System (PERS) and                                                               
Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BRUCE WEYHRAUCH called the  House Special Committee on Ways                                                             
and  Means  meeting to  order  at  9:03:06 AM.    Representatives                                                             
Weyhrauch, Moses, Seaton, and Wilson  were present at the call to                                                               
order.   Representatives  Gruenberg  and Samuels  arrived as  the                                                               
meeting was in progress.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
^OVERVIEW  - ALASKA  RETIREMENT MANAGEMENT  BOARD RECOMMENDATIONS                                                             
TO THE LEGISLATURE                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
[Includes brief mention of HB 238, HB 278, HB 375 and HB 492.]                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:03:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced  that the only order  of business would                                                               
be  an  overview provided  by  the  Alaska Retirement  Management                                                               
Board  (ARMB) with  its recommendations  to  the legislature  for                                                               
addressing  the  unfunded  liability  of  the  Public  Employees'                                                               
Retirement System (PERS) and Teachers' Retirement System (TRS).                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:04:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GAIL SCHUBERT, Chair, Alaska  Retirement Management Board (ARMB),                                                               
as per the request of  Chair Weyhrauch, introduced members of the                                                               
of the  board to  the committee:   Gayle Harbo  representing TRS;                                                               
Sam  Trivette representing  PERS;  Larry  Semmens representing  a                                                               
municipal government;  and Michael  Williams, from  Department of                                                               
Revenue  (DOR)  in  Anchorage,   representing  PERS.    She  also                                                               
introduced  others present  with some  affiliation to  the board:                                                               
Rob Johnson as outside legal  counsel; Susan Taylor, from DOR, as                                                               
staff  to   the  ARMB;  Melanie   Millhorn  from   Department  of                                                               
Administration (DOA);  Gary Bader,  Chief Investment  Officer for                                                               
the  ARMB; and  Tom Boutin,  Deputy Commissioner  with DOR.   She                                                               
noted  the three  ARMB members  not present  at today's  meeting:                                                               
Commissioner   William  Corbus   with  DOR;   Commissioner  Scott                                                               
Nordstrand with DOA; and Martin  Pihl, the board's representation                                                               
for  the public.   She  added that  with the  resignation of  Bob                                                               
Roses of Anchorage, there is now a vacant position on the board.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:07:09 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHUBERT announced  that the  committee would  be hearing  a                                                               
report from the  actuary "that is not  good news, unfortunately."                                                               
She relayed:                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The   unfunded   liability   of   PERS   and   TRS   is                                                                    
     significantly higher  than it was this  time last year.                                                                    
     The unfunded liability of PERS  is now $4.4 billion and                                                                    
     the unfunded  liability of  TRS is  $2.5 billion.   The                                                                    
     combined  total  is  $6.9  billion.    When  Mr.  Bader                                                                    
     previously  testified before  the committee,  he stated                                                                    
     that the  ARMB had  asked the  actuary to  estimate the                                                                    
     amount of  annual supplemental  appropriations required                                                                    
     to   retire  the   unfunded  liability   using  various                                                                    
     amortization  periods  and capped  contribution  rates.                                                                    
     We have received  that data based upon  the fiscal year                                                                    
     2004 (FY  04) valuation  reports and expect  to receive                                                                    
     data for the  FY 05 valuation shortly.   One thing that                                                                    
     is  clear to  the ARMB  is that  there is  an actuarial                                                                    
     cost  to failing  to  address  the unfunded  liability.                                                                    
     The  board has  considered  a number  of strategies  to                                                                    
     address the  unfunded liability question.   Among those                                                                    
     strategies  are  pension  obligation  bonds  which  are                                                                    
     addressed in HB 278,  past service cost offset accounts                                                                    
     in HB 238, retirement  benefit liability accounts in HB
     375 ... and  this afternoon the board will  also hear a                                                                    
     report on using natural gas royalties.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     It's  the view  of  the  board that  we  must begin  to                                                                    
     address the  unfunded liability this  year.   The board                                                                    
     is  giving  serious  discussion  to  an  approach  that                                                                    
     borrows  ideas  imbedded  in some  of  the  legislation                                                                    
     previously  mentioned,  and  combines  them  with  some                                                                    
     ideas of our own.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHUBERT said that the board  hopes to be back soon with more                                                               
specific recommendations  and that  the committee would  now hear                                                               
from Larry  Semmens on some  of the concepts being  considered by                                                               
the ARMB for the TRS system.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:09:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LARRY SEMMENS,  Board Member, Alaska Retirement  Management Board                                                               
(ARMB),  relayed that  he is  also the  finance director  for the                                                               
City  of Kenai.    He informed  the committee  that  the ARMB  is                                                               
considering a proposed solution to  the TRS under funding problem                                                               
that is  patterned after the  School Debt  Reimbursement Program.                                                               
He explained  that this  program is  one in  which the  state has                                                               
agreed to fund  a certain percentage of  outstanding school debt,                                                               
an amount  included every year in  the state's budget.   For TRS,                                                               
an  annual  allocation  to  an employer  would  be  required,  he                                                               
explained, that would  be "based upon its  qualifying payroll for                                                               
two years  earlier, the  past service cost  rate, and  the amount                                                               
appropriated  by the  state for  past service  retirement benefit                                                               
liability program."   He opined that this would  produce a known,                                                               
calculated amount  every year.   He reminded that  committee that                                                               
this pertains  to TRS only.   He then explained  several benefits                                                               
to this  solution:  it  allows the  ARMB to set  the contribution                                                               
rates  at levels  recommended by  the actuary  - rates  currently                                                               
markedly lower than recommended;  it requires non-general revenue                                                               
programs,  such as  federal programs,  to pay  the full  cost; it                                                               
enables the  state to provide  relief to all  non-state employers                                                               
with an unfunded retirement liability;  it allows budgeting to be                                                               
done   with  precision   because  the   calculations  would   use                                                               
historical  data;  it allows  the  legislature  to make  pro-rata                                                               
payments  should the  legislature  be unable  to  fully fund  the                                                               
program; and  it creates a  constituency for the  program because                                                               
of the statewide  benefits it provides the communities.   He then                                                               
remarked that  a similar solution  is being considered  for PERS,                                                               
however,  he noted  that there  are  difficulties regarding  this                                                               
system's allocations.  "TRS is  simpler because everyone pays the                                                               
same rate," he said.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:13:51 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID   SLISHINSKY,  Principal   and  Consulting   Actuary,  Buck                                                               
Consultants,  accompanied  by  the company's  senior  consultant,                                                               
Michelle  DeLang,  informed  the   committee  that  an  actuarial                                                               
evaluation for  TRS and PERS was  performed as of June  30, 2005,                                                               
the results of  which were presented at  yesterday's meeting with                                                               
the ARMB  and to be  presented again today  at this meeting.   He                                                               
began  by  providing  a  brief  overview  of  actuarial  process,                                                               
explaining  that a  set of  actuarial assumptions  is used  in an                                                               
attempt  to predict  the future  benefit payment  to be  paid for                                                               
both the pension and healthcare plans.   He noted that as the new                                                               
actuary for the  state, one of Buck Consultants' tasks  was to go                                                               
through the actuarial evaluation  performed by the state's former                                                               
actuary, [Mercer  Human Resource Consulting], with  the intent to                                                               
replicate  those numbers  produced by  that actuary  in its  June                                                               
2004 valuation results.   Additionally, Buck Consultants reviewed                                                               
the assumptions and  methods used by the former  actuary for both                                                               
PERS  and  TRS,  one  of  which is  the  "projected  unit  credit                                                               
method."  He  clarified that this method is one  of six different                                                               
actuarial cost  methods approved  by the  Governmental Accounting                                                               
Standards  Board  (GASB)  for  purposes  of  producing  actuarial                                                               
contribution rates and funded status  amounts.  However, he noted                                                               
that this method  is primarily used in the  private versus public                                                               
sector because  the pattern of  costs for members  increases from                                                               
date of hire until retirement.   Most public plans use the "entry                                                               
age  method," he  remarked,  which produces  a  more stable  cost                                                               
derived from  a percentage  of pay  from the  date of  hire until                                                               
retirement.  He said:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     We found that the  investment return assumption of 8.25                                                                    
     percent   was  reasonable   given  the   current  asset                                                                    
     allocation  policy   of  the  ARMB.     Payroll  growth                                                                    
     assumption  ... was  a little  overstated, but  we have                                                                    
     not made any  changes to any of the  assumptions or the                                                                    
     methods  for   the  2005  valuation.     Generally  the                                                                    
     demographic  assumptions were  reasonable,  but we  are                                                                    
     going  to perform  an  experience  analysis within  the                                                                    
     next  couple of  months ...  to look  in detail  at the                                                                    
     demographic  assumptions  to  make  sure  that  they're                                                                    
     reasonable and  closely match  what the  experience has                                                                    
     been for both plans.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:18:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   WEYHRAUCH  inquired   as  to   whether  the   demographic                                                               
assumption includes longevity.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY agreed  that it does in addition  to other factors                                                               
such   as  mortality,   life  expectancy,   retirement  patterns,                                                               
withdrawal patterns, and  disability.  He went on  to compare the                                                               
former actuary's  2004 evaluation results to  those determined by                                                               
Buck  Consultants,   [shown  on   slide  17  of   the  PowerPoint                                                               
presentation],  and noted  that although  some minor  differences                                                               
were  found,   none  were   significant  because   any  increased                                                               
liabilities  were  "washed out"  by  decreased  liabilities.   He                                                               
noted,  however, that  significant  differences  were found  with                                                               
regard  to  the  former  actuary's valuation  of  the  healthcare                                                               
benefits for PERS.   Buck Consulting determined  that the accrued                                                               
liability  was [actually]  7 percent  greater  "than what  Mercer                                                               
reported  in  2004."   He  added  that  with the  higher  accrued                                                               
liabilities  and higher  cost rates  for PERS,  "the contribution                                                               
rates that  [Buck Consulting]  would have come  up with  in 2004,                                                               
would have  been 30.37 percent  of pay  and not 28.19  percent of                                                               
pay [as valuated  by the former actuary].  So,  a little bit more                                                               
than 2 percent of pay greater in the PERS system."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SLISHINSKY directed  the committee's  attention to  the 2005                                                               
actuarial valuation  results and explained that  the same process                                                               
was  used  by  Buck  Consulting,   [as  was  used  for  the  2004                                                               
determinations], to see if there  were any changes.  Furthermore,                                                               
he noted  that there were  no changes to the  benefit provisions,                                                               
the  actuarial assumptions,  or  any of  the  methodology.   With                                                               
these  points in  mind,  he  read the  total  actuarial value  of                                                               
assets  for  PERS, [listed  on  slide  21],  from June  30,  2004                                                               
through June 30, 2005:   beginning with $8,030 billion, adding in                                                               
the  contributions,  subtracting   any  disbursements  made,  and                                                               
finally adding  in the expected  return on market value  based on                                                               
8.25  percent.   This  preliminary  actuarial  value of  [$8.419]                                                               
billion, he explained,  is then adjusted by gains  and losses for                                                               
that year to equal the amount  used for funding purposes:  $8,443                                                               
billion.   He  relayed  that  over the  next  four years,  future                                                               
smoothing amounts  of approximately  $148 million still  needs to                                                               
be recognized.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY then  turned the discussion to the  history of the                                                               
actuarial value,  as opposed  to the market  value, shown  in the                                                               
graph on slide 22.  He  highlighted that during the 1990's, there                                                               
was  healthy growth  in the  assets,  both in  the actuarial  and                                                               
market values.  He also  provided information about the 2005 data                                                               
being used  in the evaluation [shown  on the chart on  slide 23]:                                                               
33,730 active  members participating  in PERS, combined  with the                                                               
fire and  police departments [employees] and  the 20,703 retirees                                                               
resulting in  a higher total of  73,299 [PERS members].   More of                                                               
the data  on the chart,  he explained, covers the  differences in                                                               
market  value  and actuarial  value  assets,  the annual  benefit                                                               
payments, and the accumulated member contributions.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.   SLISHINSKY  noted   that  in   determining  the   actuarial                                                               
contribution [as  shown on slide  24], the amount of  the accrued                                                               
liability  is  calculated  and totals  $12,845  billion  in  2005                                                               
compared  to $11,444  billion in  2004.   The resulting  unfunded                                                               
actuarial  accrued  liability for  2005,  he  announced, is  $4.4                                                               
billion, up  from the $3.4  billion the  previous year.   He also                                                               
listed amounts  for the funded  ratio at 65.7 percent,  the total                                                               
annual  actuarial  contribution  at  39.27  percent,  the  member                                                               
contribution amount at approximately 6.8  percent of pay, and the                                                               
employer required contribution  of 32.43 percent -  almost a $100                                                               
million increase from  the previous year.  He  relayed that slide                                                               
25  shows the  degree  to  which the  accrued  liability and  the                                                               
normal cost is split between pension and healthcare.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:28:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH, referring  to the amount of debt  for PERS, TRS,                                                               
and the total combined liability  of $6.9 billion, inquired as to                                                               
how  this  compares  to  the  judicial  and  military  retirement                                                               
systems.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY explained that the  latter systems are small plans                                                               
in comparison  and their total  combined liability would  "not be                                                               
much different  than the $6.9  billion."  In further  response to                                                               
Chair Weyhrauch, he said that the  chart [on slide 26] shows "the                                                               
accrued liability  ... [and]  does not include  the assets."   He                                                               
clarified  that  when  calculating the  unfunded  liability,  the                                                               
assets are  deducted from the  [accrued liability].   This chart,                                                               
he  said,   shows  the  relative  distribution   of  the  accrued                                                               
liability  between pension  and healthcare  and how  it's changed                                                               
over time.   He opined that  there has been a  faster increase in                                                               
the value  of the accrued  liability for the  healthcare benefits                                                               
versus  the pension  benefits and  that by  2005, the  healthcare                                                               
benefits  are over  40  percent  of the  total  liability of  the                                                               
benefits.  The  final slide for PERS, he said,  shows the funding                                                               
ratio history.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY announced that he  would now provide the committee                                                               
with  the  results for  TRS  pension  plans  and noted  that  the                                                               
actuarial value  of assets in the  year ending June 30,  2005 was                                                               
approximately $3.8  billion.  Then,  adding in  the contributions                                                               
of $150  million, subtracting out  benefit disbursements  of $359                                                               
million, and  adding in the  expected return on the  market value                                                               
of  $314 million,  results in  a preliminary  actuarial value  of                                                               
almost $4 billion, he said.   He further noted that with the very                                                               
small  smoothing amount  of $9  million, the  actuarial value  is                                                               
$3,959 billion,  and with  the recognized  gains at  $68 million,                                                               
the  market value  is $4,027  billion.   He then  highlighted key                                                               
points on  the TRS data  shown in a  series of graphs  similar to                                                               
those used in  featuring PERS data:   asset smoothing comparisons                                                               
of the market  and actuarial values; pension  and post employment                                                               
healthcare  figures  for  members, compensation,  assets,  annual                                                               
benefit payments, and the accumulated  member contributions up to                                                               
an  average of  approximately $50,000.   He  also noted  that the                                                               
actuarial  accrued liability  for TRS  in 2005  has increased  to                                                               
almost  $6.5  billion and  that  the  unfunded actuarial  accrued                                                               
liability, following deduction of  the actuarial value of assets,                                                               
is approximately  $2.5 billion.   He also listed numbers  for the                                                               
funded  ratio,   the  annual  [actuarial   contribution],  member                                                               
contributions,  and the  employer required  contribution at  $236                                                               
million, or 42.14 percent of pay.   He interpreted the graphs [on                                                               
slides  34-36] noting  the similarities  and differences  between                                                               
the TRS and PERS data.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:37:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY summarized:                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     There   were  modest   gains   on   the  market   value                                                                    
     experienced during  the year:   the rate of  return was                                                                    
     about 8.55 percent or .3  percent greater than what was                                                                    
     assumed.   There are  still some  gains that  are being                                                                    
     recognized from 2003 and 2004  and ... as a result, the                                                                    
     actuarial value return was a  little bit greater at 9.1                                                                    
     percent.   So  there  were asset  gains  that acted  to                                                                    
     reduce the  unfunded liability, and  we'll see  to what                                                                    
     degree that  is.   There were  losses on  the liability                                                                    
     due   to   decremental   experience,   and   healthcare                                                                    
     experience,   and  changes   from  the   prior  actuary                                                                    
     primarily on [the PERS] piece.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH  inquired  as  to the  meaning  of  "decremental                                                               
experience."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY explained  that it is the  difference between what                                                               
is expected and  what actually happens due to  such influences as                                                               
life expectancy or deaths, patterns  of retirement, the degree to                                                               
which people terminate  service, or salary changes.   He returned                                                               
to summarizing  the unfunded liability  for the  retirement plans                                                               
noting  that  the majority  of  losses  and  changes are  on  the                                                               
healthcare  side  of the  plans.    He directed  the  committee's                                                               
attention  to the  figures  [on  slide 38]  which  show the  2005                                                               
unfunded liability at $4,402 billion  for PERS and $2,540 billion                                                               
for  TRS.   In conclusion,  he  reviewed [slide  39] showing  the                                                               
required employer  contribution rates  for PERS  and TRS  and the                                                               
declining funded ratios.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:42:17 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON,  regarding the  PERS contribution  of $293                                                               
million shown  on slide 21  relative to  the normal cost  of $338                                                               
million   shown  on   slide  24,   sought  confirmation   to  his                                                               
understanding that the system is  not contributing the "currently                                                               
accruing liabilities" under the existing funding mechanism.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY said this is correct.  He added:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     That  means that  the actual  contributions being  made                                                                    
     aren't  meeting the  actuarial rate.   So,  there is  a                                                                    
     contribution   shortfall   between    what   is   being                                                                    
     determined  for  purposes of  funding  the  plan on  an                                                                    
     actuarial  basis by  paying the  cost  of the  accruing                                                                    
     benefits as well as  amortizing the unfunded liability.                                                                    
     To  the  extent that  [the  unfunded  liability is  not                                                                    
     amortized],  the liability  will grow.   It  grows with                                                                    
     interest and  it grows  with the  cost of  the accruing                                                                    
     benefits   ....  to   the   extent   that  [should   an                                                                    
     amortization  payment not  be  made]  on that  unfunded                                                                    
     liability,  it grows  more and  then  it increases  the                                                                    
     amortization payment in the next year.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON,  regarding  comparable data  for  TRS  on                                                               
slides 29 and 32, again  sought confirmation to his understanding                                                               
that [the  state] is  more than paying  normal costs  and accrued                                                               
liabilities  than what  is being  earned in  2005, as  opposed to                                                               
PERS where  "we're still going  backwards based on  the currently                                                               
accruing benefits."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:44:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SLISHINSKY provided  a more detailed explanation  of the data                                                               
noting that the $150 million  contribution [for TRS] for the year                                                               
ending 2005, should  be compared to the  2004 annual contribution                                                               
[shown on  slide 32] with  a normal cost  of $117 million  and an                                                               
amortization payment  of $146 million.   He interpreted  that the                                                               
$150 million  is sufficient to pay  for the cost of  the accruing                                                               
benefits,  however,   is  does  not  sufficiently   amortize  the                                                               
unfunded liability  which is  causing [the debt]  to grow.   With                                                               
PERS, he  explained that  with the  contribution of  $293 million                                                               
and the normal cost of $296,  the former amount falls short by $3                                                               
million of  paying the normal cost.   He indicated that  "in that                                                               
situation  over   time,  you  would  expect   that  the  unfunded                                                               
liability for the PERS would grow faster than for [TRS]."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH,  in  noting the  significant  increase  of  the                                                               
unfunded liability  from $5.7 billion  last year to  $6.9 billion                                                               
this year, asked how the state plans to address the debt.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:47:49 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GARY   BADER,  Chief   Investment  Officer,   Treasury  Division,                                                               
Department of Revenue (DOR), indicated  his belief that he is not                                                               
in a  position to speak for  the administration.  He  offered his                                                               
understanding  that  it's  the   ARMB's  intent  to  provide  the                                                               
legislature with  suggestions to address the  [unfunded liability                                                               
of the state pension plans].                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  then asked Ms.  Schubert when the ARMB  plans to                                                               
present its recommendations to the legislature.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHUBERT  indicated  that  the board  hopes  to  report  its                                                               
recommendations to this committee in two to three weeks.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  considered the [short] amount  of time remaining                                                               
in  the session.   He  then referred  to earlier  testimony where                                                               
"the biggest issue" discussed was  an appropriation and that "the                                                               
best way to deal with this might  be just simply cash."  He asked                                                               
Ms. Schubert  whether this  solution had  been considered  by the                                                               
ARMB.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHUBERT  explained that  although  this  approach has  been                                                               
considered by the ARMB, a consensus has not been reached.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH,  in  expressing   his  understanding  that  the                                                               
board's  deliberations  were  not  confidential,  he  asked  what                                                               
possible actions have been discussed by the ARMB.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:49:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BADER expressed his belief  that the ARMB would perhaps first                                                               
want  to hear  the  presentation this  afternoon, regarding  [the                                                               
possibility of using] the natural  [gas] resource asset, prior to                                                               
putting  forth recommendations  to  the legislature.   He  opined                                                               
that although the  suggestions made earlier by  Mr. Semmens allow                                                               
an approach  that has  "traction among  board members,"  the ARMB                                                               
needs more time to consider the options.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   WEYHRAUCH   noted   that  "significant   problems"   were                                                               
identified  regarding the  proposed legislation,  [HB 492]  - the                                                               
primary one  being the transfer  of gas assets  to the ARMB.   He                                                               
opined  that  this  legislation  may  have  to  be  substantially                                                               
amended to not  only meet constitutional requirements  but to add                                                               
value to  addressing the unfunded liability.   He said, "I  was a                                                               
promoter of  that bill in  concept, so  just don't hang  your hat                                                               
too high on that bill."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:51:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON  expressed  that   her  main  concern  and                                                               
interest pertains to the unfunded  liability and should it not be                                                               
addressed  within the  next 10  years, would  it become  "huge or                                                               
small."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BADER said "huge."                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:52:48 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TOM  BOUTIN, Deputy  Commissioner, Treasury  Division, Department                                                               
of  Revenue  (DOR),  expressed   his  belief  that  although  the                                                               
unfunded liability has  continued to grow since  it was discussed                                                               
during the  2002 transition in  the administration, it is  not an                                                               
[unexpected] revelation.  Each year,  he noted, the actuary tells                                                               
the  employers  the  amount  needed   to  amortize  the  unfunded                                                               
liability over  25 years, and  that it  is "obvious" to  him that                                                               
the  debt has  continued to  grow when  the recommended  employer                                                               
rate has not been paid.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:54:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON said it  was his understanding  that none                                                               
of the employers  have seen any contribution rate  increases.  He                                                               
expressed his  interest in hearing  suggestions from the  ARMB on                                                               
how to  approach the employers  regarding increasing  payments to                                                               
reduce the pension debt.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:56:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOUTIN informed the committee  that the ARMB did adopt higher                                                               
contribution rates at its first meeting.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHUBERT  relayed her  belief that  the [employer]  rate [the                                                               
ARMB] adopted  for PERS was  21 percent  and 26 percent  for TRS.                                                               
She deferred to Mr. Semmens for confirmation of this.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  interjected that  [the legislature]  "would want                                                               
[the  ARMB] to  be as  scathingly  honest and  objective as  [it]                                                               
possibly can  and let political chips  fall where they may."   He                                                               
opined  that  it  is  very  important  for  the  public  and  the                                                               
legislature  to  understand  the  fundamental  problem  with  the                                                               
[state retirement]  system and  what measures  are needed  to fix                                                               
the problem.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHUBERT expressed  her belief that the ARMB  is cognizant of                                                               
this and intends to make [any] necessary recommendations.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:57:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SEMMENS relayed his belief that  both TRS and PERS are in the                                                               
third round of  rate increases with the first round  of 5 percent                                                               
taken from  the employers' resources.   The second 5  percent, he                                                               
said, "came out with help from  the state."  He expressed that he                                                               
was "glad  to hear ... that  there's 10 percent available  in the                                                               
budget for next  year" and conveyed his hope that  this amount is                                                               
approved [by the  legislature].  He said that since  the state is                                                               
expected  to have  a large  budget  surplus this  year, the  ARMB                                                               
recommends  that  the  legislature   make  contributions  to  the                                                               
systems "in order to increase the funding ratio."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH opined that this  was "too qualitative."  He then                                                               
announced the  presence of Commissioner William  Corbus, DOR, for                                                               
the majority of the meeting.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:58:59 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  said he hoped  that the ARMB would  find a                                                               
mechanism by which  those communities that applied  last year's 5                                                               
percent, of funded employer  contributions, toward retiring their                                                               
unfunded  liabilities,  are  recognized   for  this  rather  than                                                               
penalized.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
10:00:13 AM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Special Committee on Ways and Means meeting was adjourned at                                                                    
10:00 a.m.                                                                                                                      

Document Name Date/Time Subjects